Real Talk with Dr. Yusef Salaam
February 3, 2020
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Salaam: And the beauty of that, that idea is that the manual is the Qur’an. The book, the only book that has been carefully protected by the Creator Himself. I mean that’s …
Sapelo Square: Yeah. Yeah.
Sapelo Square: One of the questions that someone had, they wanted, they asked. They were like…they wanted to know about…let me look at it exactly to get it right. They wanted to know…they’d love to know more about your mother’s journey to Islam and how that impacted your own sort of faith journey.
Salaam: I never questioned it. I think being born into Islam or being born into a 5:00Muslim family, the only thing that I began to question was when I got locked up. Not … I mean before then yes, because it was different things going on.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: I think one of the beauties that I’ve kind of tried to—ah, what’s the right terminology—think about. That’s not the word, I’m thinking about, but I’ve been trying to decipher, in the attempt to keep Islam, without knowing that it is Islam. We as a people have hidden in our own cave, like suratul kahf. We’ve hidden in our own cave this piece of something that will… at its roots be Islam. That being when 6:00you look at Muslims who were brought to this country as slaves, they followed the religion of the, you know—what did my mother used to say? She used to say…she said, when you’re in Rome do as the Romans do.
Sapelo Square: Romans do.
Salaam: Or something like that. You know, some type of terminology like that. So, they did what they had to do.
Sapelo Square: Yeah.
Salaam: But in privacy, they still prayed to Allah. And we see all kinds of forms of that throughout all kinds of people who’ve said, wow, yeah, I heard my grandmother speaking in this weird language. And, you know, she was praying and all of this other stuff. You know, you look at the Bible and you say to yourself, wait, hold up, uh, yeah, it says right there, that he washed up and threw his face to the ground. I don’t know any other people other than Muslims that pray like that.
Sapelo Square: That pray that way.
Salaam: You know? And so, there’s this thing of … in hip hop, right.
Sapelo Square: Yeah.
Salaam: In particular.
Sapelo Square: Yeah.
7:00 Salaam: How did the outgrowth of Five Percent, so, for instance, become what it became?
Sapelo Square: Right?
Salaam: And I remember…I attached myself to that at some point.
Sapelo Square: Oh yeah?
Salaam: Because I didn’t have a clear concept of what Islam was. Like in my household it was like, okay, my mom is…you know, I didn’t even think, oh, my mom is a hijabi. I didn’t think that was a thing.
Sapelo Square: Of course.
Salaam: That’s how…that’s mom.
Sapelo Square: Right. Right.
Salaam: You know what I’m saying?
Sapelo Square: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Salaam: And that’s what she did. That’s what she wore… her attire. It wasn’t until I got to prison as a Muslim reading the Qur’an, but I’m like, oh! it says throw your clothes over yourself a certain way so that you will be known and not molested.
Sapelo Square: Right. Right.
Salaam: You know what I’m saying?
Sapelo Square: You were like oh yeah, that’s why. Yeah.
Salaam: And I wasn’t like, I wasn’t being…I wasn’t necessarily being schooled in Islam at home.
Sapelo Square: Okay.
Sapelo Square: You grew up in Harlem?
8:00 Salaam: Yeah. But I think the streets was a teacher. And we were taught good values, you know, all of that stuff. But as of…in terms of like, somebody sitting me down and saying, this is what we as Muslims do.
Sapelo Square: Okay. Right.
Salaam: This was just a part of our way of life that wasn’t necessarily…
Sapelo Square: It was just normal.
Salaam: Right. It wasn’t defined. It was normal. When I got to prison, it was like, oh, this has to be defined. I need to be able to understand this. And as a result of that, my study caused me to become the…they said, we want you to be our leader in the prison.
Sapelo Square: Word.
Salaam: So, I became the imam for almost five years.
Sapelo Square: How old were you?
Salaam: From the time that I went in until the time that I left.
Sapelo Square: Wow! Wow!
Salaam: But what’s interesting about that is this: When you think about this…the plan of Allah, right, they say man plan, God plans, but God is the best of planners.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: When you think about the plan of Allah and you think about Prophet
9:00 Ibrahim, peace be upon him, they created this big fire. They wanted to…they wanted to burn him. And when he flung him into the fire, Ibrahim (alayhi salam), he said something. And I don’t remember exactly what he said, but it’s in the
Qur’an.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: And when he said that, Allah t’ala told the fire, be cool and safe. And so, in that same way, I look at my prison experience as Allah allowing me to grow through it, as opposed to just go through it, right. So I grew through it and the prison became cool and safe for me. I’m in there, worst crime in the world, the only crime that trumps my crime, for lack of a better description and word.
Sapelo Square: I know.
Salaam: in current politics. Is child molestation.
Sapelo Square: Wow.
Salaam: And I’m in there and I’m put into a position of power. Therefore, a
10:00 position of security and safety. I leave there and go into the adult facility and they make me the third person in charge of the community. They said we need a qadi, we need someone to judge the affairs of the community. We want you to be that. And then when I left…just before I left, they made me the na’ibu, the second person in charge of the community. Every place I was in I was in this position of authority and power. There’s a scene in the film, which is a beautiful scene.
Sapelo Square: Now, I have a confession. I haven’t…so I should tell you this. I have not watched it.
Salaam: That’s not a problem.
Sapelo Square: Because I’m from Brooklyn.
Salaam: Yeah.
Sapelo Square: And I…and I was…my husband, he was like, you got…we have to…we’re going to watch this. And I was like, I don’t want to see this. And he was…he forced me to watch it. But the thing is I was probably like, 11 or something, and I don’t remember everything. But I remember, I remember the story. I remember y’all was getting railroaded. And I was like, I don’t want to see this. So, I haven’t watched the documentary. I was like I had this really visceral reaction of like, I don’t want to see this.
Salaam: I’ll tell you this.
Sapelo Square: Yeah.
11:00 Salaam: As a…I’m saying Ava gave me a alley-oop. And I’m saying she gave me alley-oop meaning an alley-oop is an assist, right. So, she’s gonna…she threw the ball…I’m about to dunk it right?
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: So, I’m here now, got the alley-oop, I’m about to slam dunk the joint, the beautiful thing about my story is that the sizzle has been given.
Sapelo Square: So, like a sizzle reel type of thing?
Salaam: So, it’s a mystery.
Sapelo Square: Yeah.
Salaam: It’s like a mystery. Like, when…there’s a scene and this is not gonna give anything away.
Sapelo Square: Okay.
Salaam: But, there’s a scene where Kevin and I, we were in the same prison for about maybe four years together. When he got convicted up until the time I left, we were in the same prison.
Sapelo Square: Okay.
Salaam: We were in the same house after a while. But this particular scene we weren’t.
Sapelo Square: Okay.
Salaam: So, in this scene, we’re just in the same facility together, and Kevin’s sister, 12:00 one of his sisters who’s more…she’s the one who is played by—oh shucks, I forget her name. She plays her very well.
Sapelo Square: Okay.
Salaam: But she’s the one who’s played by her. She’s the one who represents Angie, right.
Sapelo Square: Okay.
Salaam: And so, he has like five, six sisters or something like that. But this particular one is the one that’s always there, kind of real powerful in his story and stuff like that. Kevin’s sister says, hey, you make sure you that you’re not eating, you know, from the regular food you’re eating out of the commissary, right? You know make sure you eat of the commissary because everybody know that prison food is bad, you know what I’m saying.
Sapelo Square: [Laughter]. Right. Right.
Salaam: That’s not to say commissary is good.
Sapelo Square: Is good.
Salaam: It’s not. You know what I’m say … It’s got chips and ..
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: And stuff that’s going to give you diabetes and stuff like that. You know what I’m saying. But then she said something like you’re sticking with Yusef, right? And he looked over and I’m there with, sitting on a visit with my mom…we always 13:00 was on visits together. We was always close in the prison. But in this particular version, and this may have happened, I just…you know, one thing that I love about the series When They See Us is that each one of us has our own story and each one of us didn’t know the completion of everyone else’s story.
Sapelo Square: Everybody else’s story.
Salaam: So, we got an opportunity to really deep dive into everybody’s story through this series. I truly became acquainted with Corey’s story, Raymond’s story, you know, Antron, Kevin, all of their stories, I became acquainted with. But in this particular scene, when they…when she says that, he says, oh, he’s with the Muslims.
Sapelo Square: Someone asked me about this actually, they were like this question of whether or not it was like, whether it felt like it was a separation.
Salaam: I don’t know. But that’s what I feel like after seeing that.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: Like we never had a conversation about that. But we each sat down with 14:00 the writers and I believe that was a truth. That was something that…the idea or the understanding, oh man, was there a separation? I don’t know.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: We never…that wasn’t described. That wasn’t examined or discussed.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: But the unification of being in prison as co-defendants, but I’m over here and I’m thriving. And I’m not…like for me it was…like everybody knows Islam is very strong in prisons.
Sapelo Square: In prisons, right. Yeah.
Salaam: But what does that mean? Like that’s not talked about.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: And so that alley-oop is like, what’s up with that brother? How is he able to…and now I see him on the street, now I see him moving through life, moving through the world, what gave him this ability? That’s Islam. And what is Islam?
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: When you roll…the same way with the whole airplane situation.
Sapelo Square: Right. Right.
15:00 Salaam: You remove the xenophobia of it, it is the way of life of submitting your will to God. Oh, you mean like how Christians say, let go and let God? Absolutely. Absolutely.
Sapelo Square: Right. Right.
Salaam: You see what I’m saying?
Sapelo Square: Yeah.
Salaam: It just sounds like.
Sapelo Square: It sounds, yeah.
Salaam: And you look at the Muslim sisters and you say wait, hold on, why do they cover? Well, you know, like nuns cover too.
Sapelo Square: Right. Right.
Salaam: But if you realize and I think that that’s the part that’s profound. Once you become equated with the way of life with the deen, you begin to see the benefit. Oh, you mean, if I change my attire, people will know me differently and I won’t become accosted in society? Well just try it out.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: People have done this. I’ve been in places where sisters have said, hey, let’s do this study and just see what happens.
Sapelo Square: See what happens.
Salaam: And they’ll dress like, you know, like a regular woman on the street. They’ll dress a little like this, a little like that. And then they’ll dress like an African
16:00 Queen. And the brothers be like peace, sister. They’ll open the door. You know what I’m saying? It’s like the whole carpet is being rolled out.
Sapelo Square: Was that the kind of…one of the things that…like I know…some brothers I know who also were incarcerated, stuff like that and even sisters. Like this idea that…cause even like… this idea that when you’re inside right and there is this Muslim community, particularly people who become Muslim while they’re in prison, like there’s this…there’s this community, but then when you come home, right, they’re kind of searching for that.
Salaam: So, there’s a truth in that. And I think that, to be very honest, conversations that I’ve heard…mine’s was different. The conversations that I’ve heard have been: “where are the Muslims?” And so, therefore the…they fall to the wayside. They go back into Christianity. They go back into the streets. They go back into whatever it was. Still hoping you know, “where are the Muslims?” Like that was something that was beautiful, that sustained me in prison. And I think that
17:00 that’s something that as a community, we have to understand that there’s a need for us to be out there, not just waiting for people to come to the masjid. But how did Prophet Muhammad (salallahu alayhi wasalam) go out there in the world? How did he share this beautiful way of life with the people and sustain them? You know?
Sapelo Square: And you said yours was different? Is that because you already came from a Muslim family, you think?
Salaam: Yes and no. I mean, when I came home, the masjid that our family was associated with was right up the block.
Sapelo Square: Which one was that?
Salaam: Mosque of Islamic Brotherhood.
Sapelo Square: Oh, MIB. Oh, okay.
Salaam: Yeah.
Sapelo Square: Imam Talib. Yeah.
Salaam: Yeah. When I went…you know, coming back home, it’s like, oh, hey, salamalaikum. Yeah. Cool.
Sapelo Square: Right. Right.
Salaam: You know. Jummah and so on and so on.
Sapelo Square: Right. Right.
Salaam: It was like, yeah, this is one of my brothers. You know, what I’m saying. And a lot of the brothers in there have gone through the prison system. So, you know, Imam Talib, being a cleric that would go into the prison and minister to the people and help them and things like that. So, there was a, there was a balance of sort. You know, there was a, you know, every time when they at the Jummah
18:00 service, hey, we got two funds going on—we got a fund where brothers may need a MetroCard, and we got a fund for the building.
Sapelo Square: Right
Salaam: You know what I’m saying?
Sapelo Square: Yeah.
Salaam: And so that is out there in the world and in the streets in that area. And I think that that’s true too for, you know, say for instance, even Masjid al-Taqwa or something like that.
Sapelo Square: Right. Right. Right. Yeah..
Salaam: There’s this presence because of the culture.
Sapelo Square: And so, there’s a support that you kind of can…yeah.
Salaam: But I will say this. I think that the support system can be more, can be better. Because when you look at … like when I go to the airport, for instance, and I know that there’s a…I understand why this is not a dynamic that happens easily. But when I go to the airport, for instance, the Jehovah’s Witness are right there in front of the door as soon as I walk through. They are not going into the airport, but they’re there with their literature, you know.
Sapelo Square: Right. Right.
Salaam: Hey are you saved?
Sapelo Square: Right. Right. Right.
19:00Salaam: So forth and so on. Can I give you something? I mean, that’s how they’ve always been.
Sapelo Square: Yeah.
Salaam: But then when you think about Islam, when you think about what it means and the total, the salvation of it, when you think about in the Qur’an, it says do not die, except in the state of Islam. You know, so it’s like, how do we get…how do we get it to the people?
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: And how do we keep it with the people?
Sapelo Square: Yeah.
Salaam: You know.
Sapelo Square: Yeah, I think that’s the part the .. that’s the perennial question. It’s funny, you know, Imam Talib actually married me.
Salaam: Oh, subhanallah!
Sapelo Square: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, one of the people. It’s a story for another day. We had three people marry us at the same time.
Salaam: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Sapelo Square: But yeah.
Salaam: Wow!
Sapelo Square: But yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he, but yeah that was just actually just reached out to him for something else too.
Sapelo Square: I guess, two more questions, and then we can wrap up. Umm so, I was thinking about…because you’re a father, right. And I was thinking about, you know, the, one of the big things everybody talks about now was “the talk,” right, that that black parents have with their kids. And I was wondering what is that like for you considering your own story? Like, you know.
20:00 Salaam: It’s weird because “the talk” isn’t the same kind of way that I would see other people having the talk, right. So, we become “the talk.” We become…”oh yeah, Central Park Five,” when we were known as the Central Park Five. You know you got to be careful and this or that.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: You know we’ve heard also “man, we don’t want this to become another Central Park jogger case,” you know, and stuff like that. So, for me though, there hasn’t yet been a need for a more like hey I need to sit y’all down, you know and have a talk which y’all. I haven’t necessarily seen that need yet.
Sapelo Square: Hm. Okay.
Salaam: But just through life, through experience, I’ve been trying to show my family, you know, as young men, this is how you should try to operate. As young women, this is how you should try to operate. It’s important. Why? Because x, y, and z. And you may not understand it until you become an adult, and 21:00 realize, you know. But definitely this…the small stuff is easy because…this world we live in is a world where people are very…they’re ready to die. I just want to say it that way. They’re ready. There’s…the totality of the loss of hopelessness is there. They created terms like YOLO, and in that is recklessness. But at the same time when it comes to injustice, there’s a whole host of young people that are standing up in a way that makes us proud. But at the same time, it’s like holding the line. We’re confronting the law and not necessarily the people who violated us. And so 22:00 therefore, the people who are there to ensure order are married in a system of injustice.
Sapelo Square: Right
Salaam: Right?
Sapelo Square: Yeah.
Salaam: That the system, the totality of the system, it seems like it’s working against us. You know? And so in that construct, I tell my children as we begin to experience adulting with some of them and, you know, challenges of just living life and trying to understand things like the higher level of living is what I try to get them to see. Right? And so by higher level, you know, I remember when there was that whole debacle that came out when people were saying, you know, you should dress a certain way, it’s gonna change people’s thoughts about it and so forth and so on. And then RZA came out, and RZA was like, yeah, you know, that’s why, you know, and it was like a side conversation, but it was videotaped. And people got
23:00 wind of it, and was like yo, (making noise) tell RZA I was wearing a suit.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: So, all of these photos…you saw like the book, The Sanctuary, people hanging from trees as strange fruit, just like in suits.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: And what I’ve said to many people, even my own children is when you present yourself a certain way, it has nothing to do with the person who you’re presenting yourself in front of, but has everything to do with you. You know, you throw a suit on and you see yourself in the mirror it’s like wow, I clean up nice, I look good, I feel better about myself. The oppressor is still going to be the oppressor. Right? What Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., judge not…we want not to be judged by the content.
Both: The color of our skin.
Salaam: But the content of our character.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: And so, people are always going to judge you by the cover of the book. Even though they say you shouldn’t.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: The fallacy is that they do. And so, I go into spaces, even before exoneration, where people have said, are you one of the attorneys? And I’m like, 24:00 no I just came home from prison. You know, it’s about the presentation, but then also understanding that, coupled with that, like the beauty of it, I think, in terms of Islam is when you’re trying to fight for justice, and I’m not talking about justice, like what we see what’s going on. I’m talking about like true adl, true justice—like being in accordance with Allah, just with yourself, just with society, all of that, that changes things. That to me, when I look at Islam, and I think about what Islam is trying to get us to do, I think it’s…I think Islam is trying to morph all people, if we accept it, to being spiritual beings. Living this true spiritual reality here. Things 25:00 happen to us.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: You know, and I think that especially in the context of being Black, right, there’s racism, even subtleties of racism in Islam that has never been really pronounced.
Sapelo Square: What do you mean?
Salaam: I’m in prison. And one of the brothers was reading the Qur’an. And he was showing me stuff in Arabic. And I’m understanding some of the…like, I can read the Qur’an in Arabic, but I just don’t know what I’m saying. But I know some of the words.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: And so, the brother said, check this Qur’an out. He said, boom, Allah (ta’ala)says, and he created us from…this one says earth.
Sapelo Square: Oh, you looked at how they translated it?
Salaam: Translation.
Sapelo Square: Yeah.
Salaam: So, this one says earth.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: I’m not even thinking like, oh cool, you know. He said, but in the Arabic, it 26:00 says aswad black mud. What does that do to a people who are Black?
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: But also understanding that there’s a certain humbleness that comes with that as well. So, you can pick up your chest and try to be like, wait, you came from me, you know what I’m saying. Whereas, Allah is in control over this whole thing.
Sapelo Square: Yeah.
Salaam: Right? And so even in the whole case, like the Central Park Jogger case, this isn’t necessarily something that’s seen in the series When They See Us, but in the case it is. So, here I am just like the rest going back and forth to court like it’s a job. Here I am just like the rest being looked at and really looked into, without understanding what is that evil eye looking at me? What are they looking at? Until you become an adult and you look back and you say, oh, now I understand. In that 27:00 whole dynamic, they…I’ve been over six feet since I was 12 years old. So, they’re looking at me differently.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: Oh, this is Yusef Salaam. You know what I’m saying?
Sapelo Square: Yeah.
Salaam: I represent something, and I don’t even know what. I don’t even what they’re looking at.
Sapelo Square: [Laughter]. Right.
Salaam: It’s not until I come to…it’s not until I go to prison and come out and not only…not just that, but all of that is building me. All of that is shaping me. It’s molding me. Until, here now, 30 years later, I’m presented back in front of the world. And people are saying, how did you get through that?
Sapelo Square: Yeah.
Salaam: It’s Islam.
Sapelo Square: Yeah, that’s everybody’s questions. Because it’s like, you know, cause the story is so…I mean and this is why I said, I couldn’t…like I tried to watch. Like the first…like I watched the first 20 minutes. But it’s so like, infuriating.
Salaam: I’m going to tell you what the story…I’m going to tell you how you have to watch it.
Sapelo Square: Yeah.
28:00Salaam: You have to watch it as if you were watching or like taking a lesson, a
school lesson. You have to watch it, knowing that it’s going to break you. But
knowing also that we survived.
Sapelo Square: Yeah.
Salaam: And so, if you know that it’s going to, it’s going to basically bring you through something, on the other end of that you will be changed.
Sapelo Square: Okay.
Salaam: But the reason why you will be changed is because we need change in the world.
Sapelo Square: Yeah.
Salaam: We need for us, as a people, to understand what’s really at stake. What is that, like…why is it that When They See Us is disrupting people’s lives in a good way, causing people to be shaken. People still send me messages on Instagram, DM’ing me, you know, their love and support from all around the world, right. Why is
it…why is that? It’s because When They See Us is not about just…it’s not just about
29:00when they see us, the five, it’s about when they see us, as a people, and the
vibration that’s happening around the world, the reverberation.
Sapelo Square: Reverberation.
Salaam: Reverberation.
Sapelo Square: [Laughter]. Right.
Salaam: That’s happening around the world.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: Is because, guess what? Racism is alive and well.
Sapelo Square: Right. No. That’s true.
Salaam: And, and, and this is the deepest part. There’s, you know, they always say that there’s layers to Islam. There’s like what’s in front of you, and there’s like spiritual stuff that’s going on that you may not necessarily see. We heard this before, that the greatest racist is the devil.
Sapelo Square: Yeah.
Salaam: But that means something different in Black America.
Sapelo Square: [Laughter]. Right. Right.
Salaam: Step out of that for a second. And understand that when Allah (ta’ala) 30:00 created Adam, Allah told all things, everything to bow down to Adam. All bowed down except for Iblis. People say oh he was an angel. He was a fallen angel. No, Allah, describes what he is there. He was created from fire. Angels weren’t created from fire. He was given the opportunity to be free in a way like us, you know.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: And so, the depth of this idea is that the battle has been…and this is the other part. This real talk. This real conversation that I like to have is that the true battle is never against Black and White.
Sapelo Square: Right
Salaam: The true battle is battling spiritual wickedness of high and low persons. Because when you look at it, you say to yourself, oh, that’s why, you know. Somebody said…somebody posted on social media earlier today, they say, be careful who you’re dealing with because some people, you…no, they said, be 31:00 careful who you’re playing with, because some people ain’t playing.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: That’s how graves have been dug. I think TI put that up there. And, I was just kind of like, wow, you know. Some people say like, man, you know, the…you think about evil and sometimes we see the worst evil in Black folks. But that’s not…that shouldn’t be attributed to us.
Sapelo Square: Right.
Salaam: That should be attributed to the whispering of Shaytaan and Allah protect us from that.
Sapelo Square: Amin